LISTEN — Class Disrupted Podcast Episode 5: My Kid’s Able To Finish Schoolwork In 3 Hours. So What Is He Doing For The 6 In School?

LISTEN — Class Disrupted Podcast Episode 5: My Kid’s Able to Finish Schoolwork in 3 Hours. So What Is He Doing for the 6 in School?

Class Disrupted is a weekly educational podcast that features conversations with various individuals involved in the education system, including author Michael Horn and Diane Tavenner from Summit Public Schools. Together, they explore the challenges faced by the education system during the pandemic and discuss potential solutions. You can access all episodes of the podcast on our Class Disrupted page or by subscribing on Apple Podcasts, Google Play, or Stitcher (new episodes every Tuesday).

Parents have recently noticed that their children are able to finish their schoolwork in a fraction of the time it would normally take at school. This raises the question of how schools can utilize this extra time to teach students the necessary habits for success in adulthood. These habits include time management, collaboration, and self-direction, which are important for success in high school, college, work, and home.

In this episode, we delve into these habits of success and their connection to academic learning. We have a conversation with Angela Duckworth, the author of "Grit," who provides insights on what these habits are and how they can be explicitly taught. We also speak with Veronica Vital, the lead teacher of Acorn Montessori in Minneapolis, who shares her experiences in implementing these ideas into daily practice.

One parent, Matt, shares his observation of how quickly his children adapted to remote learning during school shutdowns. He noticed that his children were able to complete their work within a couple of hours, which made him question why it takes so much longer when attending school in person. This raises the issue of whether the additional hours spent at school are productive or simply wasted time. We explore possible alternatives for utilizing this time more effectively.

You can listen to the episode below, and a full transcript is available.

[Diane introduces herself]

[Michael introduces himself]

In this episode of Class Disrupted, we address the question raised by Matt and many others regarding the amount of time children spend in school compared to the time it actually takes to complete their schoolwork. We aim to understand how these extra hours are spent and whether they are truly beneficial. To help us discover answers, we have the privilege of speaking with two remarkable individuals. First, Angela Duckworth, the renowned author of "Grit" and CEO of Character Lab, shares insights on the important life habits that can be developed during these additional hours in school and how they contribute to future success. Then, we hear from Veronica Vital, a dedicated teacher at Acorn Montessori in Minneapolis, who provides valuable insights into the practical implementation of these essential life habits, both during in-person and remote learning.

Prior to founding Summit Public Schools, you had a significant teaching career in a traditional school setting, which many people may not be aware of due to your association with Summit today. Can you share your experiences and shed light on why school hours were typically longer despite the actual time required for schoolwork?

[Diane responds]

Michael: Yeah, it’s fascinating. We’ll delve deeper into this topic in a future episode. But referring back to our previous discussion on projects, one of the main challenges is the difficulty in achieving a state of flow. Additionally, I believe there is another factor at play, which is the amount of time spent on managing the class during the 45 to 50 minutes. Dealing with disruptions and misbehaving students takes away from valuable teaching time.

Diane: The term "classroom management" is quite disappointing in the field of education. The idea that a single adult should be responsible for managing the behavior of 25 to 30 kids, with them sitting in rows, following rules, and not interacting with each other goes against everything we know about how children learn.

Michael: Exactly. It implies that the teacher needs to control everything and manage the class like a factory. We will discuss this further in a future episode, but it essentially forces teachers to manage all the students instead of empowering each individual student to take charge of their own learning and make productive decisions. We burden teachers with so much responsibility, which ultimately wastes time.

Diane: I completely agree. The parent mentioned earlier in the episode is also correct. There is a lot of time in school that is not effectively used for learning and advancing education in a productive manner.

Michael: So let’s set aside all that wasted time. The big question is whether school still needs to be six hours if four hours are essentially wasted.

Diane: Oh my gosh, Michael. Definitely. Yes, yes, yes. School should still be six hours. We must utilize every single minute of that time.

Michael: Alright, let’s delve deeper into this. We acknowledge that there is a lot of wasted time, but we also believe that we need all that time. However, I’m not a math expert — anyone who knows me will tell you that — so how exactly are you proposing to use that time?

Diane: Well, Michael, we should be utilizing that time to help students develop another set of skills that are widely recognized as valuable by parents, teachers, and students themselves. At Summit, we refer to them as "habits of success." Some people call them social-emotional skills or noncognitive skills, although I personally dislike that term. What matters is that we prioritize these skills, regardless of the name we give them.

Michael: I completely agree with you. "Noncognitive skills" seems to undermine the importance of these skills in cognition, right, Diane?

Diane: Absolutely. When I refer to these skills as habits of success, I’m talking about skills such as time management, collaboration, and self-direction. These skills are incredibly crucial for success in life, college, work, and home. I agree with you that we shouldn’t diminish their significance with a name that makes them sound less important.

Michael: Let’s shift our focus away from the abstract and discuss this in a concrete manner. Let’s say a student is working on solving a problem, such as how to prevent a squirrel from raiding a bird feeder. This is something that has been on my mind a lot lately in my own home. They are not only developing their reasoning and critical thinking skills, as we discussed in the previous episode, but also skills like goal setting and bouncing back from setbacks throughout the project. Am I understanding this correctly?

Diane: That’s spot on. And it’s important to highlight that they are intentionally practicing goal setting and responding to setbacks repeatedly. This is a common misconception about these skills. They can be developed and improved over time.

Angela, what you refer to as "character," we refer to as habits. Although the terminology may differ, we are essentially discussing the same concept. There is a common belief that these skills are innate and cannot be learned. Can you provide some clarification on this matter?

Angela: I believe that the perception that these skills are fixed and unchangeable is one reason why some individuals dislike the term "character," and I can understand their perspective. The word itself implies that one either possesses good or poor character. For example, one either has a strong sense of empathy or they don’t. However, as a psychologist who has studied child development, I can confidently say that these qualities can indeed be developed. By this, I mean that every quality we have discussed is malleable and subject to change. This does not negate the existence of genetic factors, as they play a role in various aspects of our being. However, schools play a crucial role in teaching children the necessary skill sets and mindsets to foster gratitude, empathy, curiosity, and other important qualities.

RelatedAt ASU-GSV, Angela Duckworth Talks Grit and the Challenges of Building a Movement: ‘Education Is So Hard That It Tests Even My Own Grit’

Michael: I’m curious about the distinction between these skills and academic knowledge and learning. How do you perceive this relationship, and do they complement each other or are they completely separate?

Angela: There is a reason why some people refer to these skills as nontraditional or nonacademic. They are often seen as separate from the traditional academic measures used in evaluating students. Standardized tests and other cognitive assessments do not measure empathy, curiosity, or self-control, among other qualities. Therefore, there is a valid reason for this separation, as our current academic measures do not capture the holistic development of a child. However, when people ask whether these skills are equivalent to academic skills, there is a sense in which they are interconnected. Lack of focus and the inability to persevere through challenges hinder a student’s ability to learn and succeed academically.

We want to convey to educators and parents that there is a wide range of qualities we want all children to develop in order for them to thrive. These qualities contribute not only to academic success but also to physical, social, and emotional well-being. So, while there may be a distinction, these aspects are deeply intertwined.

Think of it as the threads in a fabric. Academic success cannot be achieved without simultaneously working on these skills in schools.

Diane: Angela, this is a great opportunity to delve deeper into your expertise as a mother, educator, scientist, and researcher. Given your extensive experience in school settings, could you provide us with insights into how the best schools integrate these skills and create a cohesive environment?

Angela: I must admit, I am not a perfect mother. On a good day, I would rate myself a 7 out of 10.

Michael: Many people would consider that to be quite good.

Angela: If you were to ask my children, they would likely be less generous in their assessment. Yes, I do have a 17- and 18-year-old at home.

When consistent role models are present, such as when a mother emphasizes the importance of respect for all individuals but then reacts negatively to a telemarketer, it highlights personal vulnerability. I can relate to this vulnerability because I have advised my own daughters to be kind and understanding towards others, acknowledging that everyone carries their own burdens. However, there have been occasions where I’ve acted rudely towards telemarketers, displaying crankiness and annoyance, which contradicts the values I try to instill in my children.

Modeling behavior is one aspect to consider. However, there is another element that requires explicit rather than implicit instruction. Though this perspective may be somewhat controversial, I’m interested in hearing your thoughts as an educator, Diane. I believe it is necessary to explicitly state core values and provide clear guidance on what we consider important. Simply stating that we value hard work and discipline is insufficient. Children need assistance in understanding how to develop a plan, create a schedule, and take control of their own learning. Some may disagree with me, claiming that it is all implicit, but I do not see it that way.

Diane: These skills we are discussing are becoming increasingly crucial. As children come home and parents observe them, there is a spotlight on whether these skills have been developed or not. Two skills that repeatedly come up are self-direction, where children take responsibility for their own learning and drive it forward, and collaboration. It is often assumed that children go to school to socialize, but in reality, schools are not very social environments. Do you have any insights on these key skills?

Angela: Yes, you captured my thoughts accurately, and I wholeheartedly agree. As we transitioned to the pandemic situation, self-regulation became a vital aspect, with the idea of "I am in charge of my own learning." Collaboration is also essential. Even before the pandemic, as a college-level teacher, I noticed that when 18-year-olds transitioned from traditional K-12 schools to college, they faced the reality of autonomy. In college, no one will wake you up for your 9 o’clock class, and even the professors won’t question your absence. Students must learn to develop autonomy and the necessary skills that support it.

Life itself is a team sport, and yet schooling, including university education, can feel strangely individualistic. It revolves around your GPA, performance in final exams, and the quality of your essays. However, there are efforts being made, like the scheme developed by my colleague Adam Grant at Penn University. I don’t recall the exact details, but it allows successful students to support their classmates in some way. I will provide you with more information on that later. Ultimately, in life, we must learn to take care of ourselves and others. How can we align K-12 education with this principle?

And now let’s discuss collaboration. I believe that collaboration is a skill that is crucial for being a successful team player. Recent research conducted in 2020, which has not yet been published, suggests that empathy lies at the heart of being an exceptional team player. This research indicates that measured intelligence and existing knowledge about a specific domain do not necessarily determine one’s ability to be a great team player. For example, in a scenario where everyone is divided into teams of four to work on an ecology project, the person who excels in algebra may not necessarily be the best team player. Instead, what truly sets apart a great team player is their ability to empathize with and understand the emotions and thoughts of their teammates. They prioritize the team’s performance over their own individual success.

These skills cannot be expected to develop spontaneously and miraculously in all young individuals. However, through the process of schooling, we can support the development of these skills.

Michael: I’m curious about the relevance of empathy, especially in today’s context. But I think there’s a deeper connection that needs to be explored. Can you explain why honing these skills is not only crucial for academic success, but also for success in life?

Angela: Let’s consider the scenario where young people, after completing their education, enter the workforce. In 99.99 percent of cases, they will need to collaborate closely with others. If they fail to appreciate the importance of effective communication and understanding in such situations, it can lead to misunderstandings and conflicts. Let me provide a specific example. Imagine a young person you care about who is engaged in an email exchange with a colleague. Sometimes, due to a small misunderstanding, the situation can escalate, leading to assumptions and negative perceptions about the colleague’s intentions. I have experienced this myself. It is important for young people to learn that when communicating through mediums like email or text, where facial expressions and tone of voice are absent, misunderstandings can occur. Therefore, it is vital to explicitly teach them the skills to navigate such situations.

I believe these skills should not be left to chance and self-discovery. In my laboratory, my older students who are about to graduate follow a rule called the "48-hour rule." If there is any confusion or lingering doubts after 48 hours or two emails, they are not allowed to send another email. Instead, they have to pick up the phone and have a conversation to hear each other’s voices. These are the kinds of skills that are universally valuable, regardless of one’s future career. I hope that someone takes the time to teach these skills to young individuals.

Michael: This conversation with Angela and Diane has provided some valuable insights. These habits of success, as you call them, not only need to be modeled but also explicitly taught. They are intertwined like fibers in a fabric, and it is important to bring together the different elements of digital learning and project-based learning to create a meaningful educational experience where students can develop these skills simultaneously.

Diane: This aligns with the overarching theme of our podcast. We need to integrate digital learning, project-based learning, and other elements to ensure that students have a comprehensive and meaningful educational experience that fosters the development of these essential skills.

Michael: If we examine this from a different perspective, let’s consider the importance of being empathetic towards others’ emotions within a team. This is crucial in being a good team player. In a school setting, we can teach children how to collaborate effectively. Now, before our listeners and you start groaning, let’s address the negative connotations associated with group work in schools. We often carry preconceived notions or past negative experiences. However, the point here is that we shouldn’t simply throw a group of kids together and expect them to succeed. Instead, we should teach them step by step, gradually building these skills in all of them.

Diane: Absolutely, Michael. None of this comes easily, and we can see this struggle even among adults. Many have experienced the difficulties of working in a team without possessing these skills. It’s no surprise that people struggle, as we rarely teach these skills. Where are individuals supposed to learn them? Imagine the possibilities if all children learned these key habits before graduating high school. These skills are crucial not only in the workplace, but also in their personal lives and for their future success. We know that employees spend a significant amount of time helping each other and overcoming challenges that arise when individuals lack these skills.

Michael: That’s right. This is precisely why my wife and I chose a Montessori school for our daughters. It wasn’t just about math and reading; we were thrilled about how these habits of success were integrated into the academics. The combination of the two elements excited us. Interestingly, during our time sheltering in place, we have witnessed these habits that they developed at school playing out at home, which has been truly wonderful. Many people have misconceptions about Montessori and believe it’s a free-for-all environment where students have complete freedom to do as they please. However, they fail to realize that it is a structured environment with intentional activities. Students have extended periods to work on their chosen tasks, but with careful planning. They practice daily planning, and they even share their plans with us each evening. As they progress in these mixed-age groups, they gain daily experience in leadership and teaching. The integration is remarkable and has a profound impact, Diane.

Diane: Absolutely, Michael. I’m also a big supporter of Montessori. People may not be aware that Maria Montessori approached learning and creating a learning environment for children from a scientific perspective. She was a true scientist. The Montessori approach is rooted in systematic, data-driven methods rather than mere intuition. It is based on her observations and her application of scientific principles to develop an educational experience that aligns with how children genuinely learn and develop.

Michael: Exactly. It was a remarkable fusion of theory and practical application, with Maria Montessori observing how these ideas worked with real children. There are indeed numerous schools that successfully integrate academics and habits. The best among them have even managed to continue this integration despite the challenges of remote learning. Let’s be honest, transitioning to remote learning was a monumental task, as teachers and schools were not adequately prepared. However, those who held these principles at their core were able to make the leap, Diane.

Diane: We are incredibly fortunate because it’s currently challenging to secure any teacher’s time. They are overwhelmed with end-of-year responsibilities and the efforts required to support their students. Therefore, I am extremely grateful to Veronica from Acorn Montessori, who generously made time to discuss the happenings in her school and classrooms.

Diane: Could you please explain what a prepared environment means to you? It seems to have a specific significance in your school. What does the prepared environment actually look like?

Veronica: The prepared environment in our school is specifically tailored to the age group we serve. For example, a 3-year-old may not be ready to read, but there are other activities that can foster their development. These activities prepare their hand-eye coordination and mental abilities, guiding them towards where they should be. To serve these needs and skills, we must be extremely meticulous in preparing the environment. Each child learns at their own pace, so just because we are both 3 years old doesn’t mean we are on the same level. That’s perfectly okay. This is why the prepared environment caters to the needs of every single child. Teachers must be observant in identifying these needs and preparing accordingly.

Diane: When I have visited Montessori schools, I’ve noticed that there are various activities in the classroom and space. Some of them seem academic, such as word cards, books, and math manipulatives. Others could be play sets like tea sets or kitchens, and I’ve even seen knives. Most people wouldn’t trust young children with actual knives for cooking and snack preparation, but it seems that the classroom culture in Montessori trusts the children.

As a teacher, it seems that you don’t instruct them on what to do. Instead, you work alongside them, coaching and guiding them through this described environment. Am I understanding that correctly?

Veronica: That is absolutely correct. That’s why in a Montessori class, we are referred to as guides rather than teachers. Each child comes with unique interests, desires, learning styles, and social-emotional needs. Our role is to guide them accordingly.

Diane: It seems that a significant part of the school experience is being together in the physical space, engaging in hands-on activities, and having conversations while guiding the children. What happened when the pandemic struck and you couldn’t be physically present at the school with the children? How did you manage?

Veronica: Fortunately, these children are adaptable to different situations and environments. We created materials and shared them with the families. Since each child is unique, we developed a personalized plan for each child every week. You can imagine the amount of preparation involved! The key is to ensure that children receive what we want them to achieve through proper preparation. We continued to have daily meetings with the children, singing our songs and following a routine established in the classroom. We send love and well wishes to those who aren’t present. These children are going through uncertain times right now.

Diane: Are they able to continue learning and growing even when they are not physically present at the school with you?

Veronica: As I mentioned, we provide materials based on each child’s level. We stay in touch with the parents and cater to the needs of each individual child. We inquire about their requirements and provide the necessary resources.

Diane: In addition to the pandemic, you are located in Minneapolis, which is at the center of a significant and painful moment in our country’s history. How does this affect your school, families, and children? What is happening for all of you?

Veronica: Well, one of my biggest concerns and immediate reactions is towards my families. Acorn Montessori is just four blocks away from where George Floyd was killed. I reached out to each family individually to ensure their safety and offer any assistance or shelter they might need. It was heartwarming to see the beautiful sense of community. Most of them assured me that they were fine but expressed their willingness to support me and the community in any way possible. It brought tears to my eyes to witness the strength of the community we have built.

Ultimately, our goal at Acorn Montessori is to empower children to become leaders and contribute to a more just and peaceful world. I hope that one day, these children will be the leaders who create a better and fairer society.

Veronica: Same here. When I speak about my children and my community, it genuinely brings tears to my eyes. My dream has always been to create a space where everyone can truly be themselves, where we can reach out and say, "You belong here." I don’t care about your needs or the behaviors you bring. What matters is that you belong here and the environment is ready for you. So when I witness the unity and support within the community, it confirms that we are moving in the right direction, towards our desired goals.

Michael: Diane, after having a profound conversation with the remarkable teacher Veronica, I am struck by the significance of this moment in our nation’s history. It is crucial for people to remember that achieving something similar to what she described in her school, especially in the transition to remote learning, would be challenging within the confines of a traditional school structure. Montessori schools, along with other similar ones that cultivate success habits in students, tend to challenge conventional practices such as fixed schedules and subject-focused classes that bring interruptions, as you mentioned earlier. Montessori schools embrace mixed-age groups, eliminating the concept of traditional grade levels. They don’t compartmentalize subjects in the usual way with fixed class timings. It is through intentionally designed structures like these, which deviate from the norm, that the magic we just witnessed becomes possible. It is a much more effective approach to make the most of learning time within the school.

Diane: Maybe this is the moment in time when we need to reflect on whether this traditional approach is truly beneficial for our children. I am eagerly looking forward to our next episode, Michael, where we will have the opportunity to engage in conversation with Todd Rose, the author of The End of Average. Few people have devoted as much thought to understanding the origins of these structures, why we adhere to them, and how we can replace them with something far more meaningful and empowering for children.

Michael: Thank you for listening, and a special thanks to our incredible team who make all of this possible. Jenna Free, our talented writer, Steve, our dedicated producer, and Nathan James, who helps us with publicity and graphics. We’ll see you next time on Class Disrupted.

Michael Horn has authored several books on the future of education, including Disrupting Class: How Disruptive Innovation Will Change the Way the World Learns. He collaborates with various organizations to drive the transformation of education, ensuring that individuals can pursue their passions and fulfill their potential.

Diane Tavenner is the CEO of Summit Public Schools and co-founder of the Summit Learning Program. She has dedicated her life to education and innovation and is the author of Prepared: What Kids Need for a Fulfilled Life.

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